Photography Business Forum

Your situation is same everywhere, and it's because people want deals, they want specials, they want discounts.

My first inclination is that you're not setting expectations right. Before you even shoot you should sit down with them and LISTEN to their wants.   I capitalized LISTEN because from their you can determine how much they really want their photos and can determine the correct pricing.

Second,  saying No is far better than being perceived as the cheapest photographer in town. Yes we are starving, yes we need the work, but we cannot be the photographer for everyone, remember a Jack of All Trades is Not a Master of Anything.  People want Masters not a Jacka$$e$ =)

Third, in order for us to survive and live comfortably we should price our work based on our true worth not how much the market wants it to be.  So  that even if we decline projects we can still survive and live comfortable. Photography is not a commodity after all. It's an emotional product.

Ken,

I can agree with all that Marius said - and add that finding a way to do a great job under difficult circumstances is why clients hire professionals. After all, if it were easy, anyone could do it. One tactic I've found that works is to play the quality card. I tell them that they've come to me because they're looking for a certain level of quality and that in order to deliver that level certain things need to happen. If they're not willing or able to allow those things to happen they need to understand the quality may not be what they're hoping for. I also throw in that anyone who tells them they can do what they're asking for what they're offering either doesn't understand what's involved or is flat out lying.

With that said, I can commiserate. The jobs where we get to really do things right are so few and far between that I relish them every time they come around. 

SB

Kinda sad but true

"No time for quality"

http://rising.blackstar.com/snapshots-from-the-italian-photography-market.html

SB Makes some great points. You have to shift their understanding of your value away from price and over to creativity, customer service, and repeatable quality. Ultimately, you do have a great bargaining chip, the ability to say no. Saying yes to any deal and that low price paints a picture of you as someone who NEEDS to take that business ( even at low rates) to stay afloat. Saying no may actually raise your profile in their eyes.It shows that you take pride in your work, are a smart business person, and are enough in demand that you do not need their job. Its a subtle negotiation tactic that says  "I am good enough to shoot images for your company, but is your company good enough to have images shot by me" You have instantly shifted the conversation away from you trying to please them via price, to them trying to qualify their own worth via negotiating a fair price for your quality and skill. As long as your work is of a quality that can demand a higher price, you should negotiate on a  high quality position. 

Ken; I worked in Hong Kong for two years (1994 - 1996) so I have personal experience In China and the USA. Your difficulties are common everywhere. The thing I did to establish myself in Hong Kong - and it is tough - is to just say NO to the low end jobs. I don't know how things are now, but my experience in HK was there was the top 10% photographers who charged respectable fees and then there is everybody else. (There was this one photo studio who charged half my rates and when you hired them, all six guys showed up for the job. It seemed that one guy owned the camera, one guy owned the lights etc. etc. !). Work hard on your portfolio, prove that you are worth the money and turn down the low end jobs.

Ken - I have been thinking about your predicament and have been wondering if you are reaching out to the right clients or presenting yourself properly.  There is obviously a gap in your expectations and your clients and obviously this will frustrate you to no end.

You might want to consider doing a self-evaluation of your business model or ask a third party to evaluate it for you.  I think it's worth considering and it may be money worth spent.  Like they say "sometimes you gotta spend money to make money."

 

It is good business to say you are on a tight budget. Every client will try to get the best price possible. One way that I have dealt with this over the years is to never give one price. I will give 5 or 6 prices. Most clients also say that they want all rights but the reality is that they can't afford all rights. Most photographers deal with this by caving in and licensing at a below market price but there is a much better way to deal. I will give a price of say $1500 and that is for one time publication in xyz for one month. A second price might be $2500 for the same usage but for 6 months. A third price might be $4500 for one year and so on. Eventually there may be a price for 10 years worldwide for $50,000. The point is that my estimate may really be from $1500 to $50,000 and it puts the onus on the client to realize that I am very negotiable but usage is tied to the price.

It seems that everyone said to say "no" to the offer or to counter offer with a higher price with more restrictions.

It would be interesting to have someone comment on the opposite, not to "flame" the group here, but to offer the opposite argument, i.e. "taking a job when offered even when you consider it sub-standard."

Just a thought experiment, no hate mail please.  ;-)

Ken...

There is nothing wrong with being assertive.  But be ready explain your reasons. et al. I cannot work without my assistant.  I don't want to waste my time training someone when I can get things done a lot faster with someone that knows what I need done and knows my gear.  You are hiring me, because of my experience and I need to hire a crew with experience.  If I don't...then you won't get the quality I usually deliver that you are normally accustomed to.  (Although, I admit to being more frank than most people - your culture is much more different and doubt my approach would work)  - correct me if I am wrong.  :)

Also there is nothing wrong with saying, "No".  Know your worth and your value.  You deserve it, all of it.

New business man without a clitic eyes will always looking for cheap photog, and they think everyone with a camera is same. This is what happen in China.

I still get some good client (old fashion one) who believe experience is important, and most of them do not want to spend resources to "take two" then will assign me with a reasonable fee.

Oversea client who contacted me... 80% of them telling me that my fee is too high compare to the photog in their country (someone even tell me that I am expensive then their photog in New York).

Lie ... I know that... i.e. 1us$ for one product shoot... I just let them go.