Angela Stanton
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Hi Angela, congratulations on starting a business, it can be a lot of hard work but it's rewarding work.
I am in the process of rebranding my self and building a new website(s) to better showcase my work, so I have been looking at a lot of this not that I am an expert by an means this is just my opinion.
First your question: Yes, I do thing more than one web site could be a good thing but in you case I don't think that it would be helping all that much you might be better of putting your time in to a blog rather than maintaining two sites.
As for the site them selves, I believe a websites is about showcasing your best work and only your best work and you do have some good work but it gets a bit lost in the mediocre work on the site. My current website has the same problem, I set it up as I first started and did not know that much about the topic to be honest and I really need to pull it in to line.
I would recommend cutting you galleries down to two or three and putting you best ten - fifteen photos in for each category. Because to be honest the first thing I thought when your site loaded was *sigh* there is a lot to get through I mean one gallery (executive) had one shot and another (spain) had over 500 photos and from what I saw on the first page they where mostly happy snaps from a holiday, now there could be some fantastic shots in there but I was not going to go through all of them to find out, I could be the odd one out but I think visitors to you site would feel the same there is just to much.
Most of the photos would suit a blog, as you can put more of your personality / life on a blog and let people get to know you, where a website tends to be more business focused.
Secondly your pricing is way low you will have a hard time convincing people you are a professional while selling 8x10 prints for $3 and a 16x20 for $20... not to mention making a profit.
Hope this helps Matt
Thank you for your comments Matt! I greatly appreciate your help!
You went to my personal pages that I don't use for clients. For clients I use a password protected folder they must log into--in other words, the folders you visited are not for my clients. The prices you saw are not the prices I charge for wedding pictures either. When a client receives her pictures, she and all the names on her list get a link to a password log in and they only get to see their own pictures. Those pictures have a very different pricing structure.
I hope this helps clear the confusion.
It seems that you did not visit the "show" website--granted its link is not working for some reason in the above; maybe it is working in this note. This website is the one I advertise (facebook and google) and not my other one. If you have the chance, please check out this website.
Thanks,
Angela
I looked at both sites Angela and feel while the "show site" was better it had very similar problems while not as busy it lacked a bit of focus and I do not believe it showcased your best work.
The slide show had a landscape of a drain? One of a young boy out of focus.
Then all three galleries had some work I think should be cut as it was not your best and that gives the site a I don't have enough good work to fill the galleries feel.
As for the client log in page, that site is still a public site (the URL you will give the clients with your link), so your clients can and will see it. How do you think they will feel if you are charging X for your prints in one spot you set up for them and then next to nothing for anyone with the other section of the site?
I understand what you are trying to do but I feel it needs a bit of work, maybe work with someone that does web design and get them to help you streamline the site simple, clean and elegant?
Thanks Matt for visiting my other web as well. I am not sure what is a "landscape of a drain"? Do I have a landscape of a drain??? I don't think I do, unless a picture of mine is so bad that it looks like a drain... I am not sure which picture you mean.
You are very right about the mix of pictures; I am working on that website as we speak and will clear the clutter as I can see it is confusing. I have already reformulated my main website since we first talked...
As for the pricing of the pictures on my main site. I have often time been provided link to wedding pictures by wedding photographers with a password and I have never once been able to trace down the "regular" pictures they might have created for sale of other kinds. So I am thinking that when I give a "client link" they only get to see that link and nothing else!
But one other thing is about pricing--I think you live in Australia. I believe there are very different practices in some countries in terms of what wedding photographers do with the pictures after the wedding. In the UK I know that photographers live off of the prints; perhaps also in Australia. In the US things are changing.
Here, if you don't release all of the pictures on a DVD and/or electronically to the client, many wedding coordinators will not work with you at all. I live in Southern California, and perhaps here it is even more firmly practiced than elsewhere. I, for example, do not offer prints and album at all! The large sum of money for the wedding is paid up front and includes the DVD and/or electronic download at no cost but neither prints nor album.
Then if the client also wants prints, they can purchase from me or elsewhere... so I have no incentive to increase my print prices to be higher than the general they would have to pay if they went to other online sources! The album is also not included since most California couples are very internet savvy and know quite well that they can create their own wedding albums for $250... so why bother? I only provide album to those couples who are willing to pay for artsy interpretation and layout...
So I suppose the practices differ based on where you are located--as I am sure that even within the US practices differ and even within my own state, if I go further inland, I am sure more attention is paid to prints than on the coast. Hence even if my clients can see the regular print prices I have for general use, they will not be influenced in any way about prints I charge for the wedding pictures... because they won't buy that from me anyway.
My two sons got married a year ago and both had this DVD arrangement. On the second wedding, the photographer wanted to pull a game and started to push for prints. He was kicked real good in that the wedding coordinator dropped all contact with him, has written bad report on him, and my daughter in law is now telling all her friends getting married to avoid that photographer (they all come to me now, which is great!).
So, in summary, in Southern California, we live by pre-payment and we don't expect the sales of any prints or album!
I hope this helps to clarify what I am trying to accomplish...
That sounds like a tough market to be doing business, one BIG problem I see with shoot and burn is: you can't control quality.
Think about it this way, they get a cheap print done (they will, they don't under stand about colour fade and the real value in a good quality print from a pro lab) and in 2-3 years the whites go yellow or gray and the colours are dull. Then when someone comes to the house and asks "who did your photos?" they say "oh it was _____" BAM! You are in the bad books, most people don't think "oh my friend is a tight @$$" they think, wow thats a crap photo who did it.
Wedding albums are the same deal, sell high quality professional products that will out last a album done at the supermarket, a 12"x12" album I use wholesales for over $400 but if people don't see the "value" in it thats cool I don't sell it to them
I think if you look around your area even if it is a very tough market like you describe the top wedding photographers will not be shoot and burn.
My advice if that is the mentality with coordinators and clients would be, yes offer the dvd (at an inflated price to cover you costs and loss of print sales) and then help them to see the benifits of PRO QUALITY prints and albums.
The best way to do this is have a cheap print framed with a cheap over the counter frame then have the same print from a pro lab in a frame from a pro grade framer sit them next to each other to show the client or the same with an album a pro quality lay flat album V's what ever crap they can pick up for $250.
sit them down with someone and they will be telling you all the flats with the cheap products!
I am not really a wedding photographer and just shoot a bit that comes my way with out really pushing for it but I have woken up to the dangers of shoot and burn. The way to over come the mass of other photographers out there is... don't compete with the masses, be better and sell better quality products.
I also believe this same philosophy applies to websites get someone to help you build a pro quality site and you will see the benefits, yes we are in different parts of the world but our markets are not as different as you think, I really do believe that there are good and bad clients everywhere, you just need to market yourself to the right ones!
Good luck with it all, Matt
Yeah, I agree with you Matt in every which way but unfortunately the couples locally--for the most part--don't care about prints at all. I went to a wedding in Beverly Hills to a couple where the wife-to-be comes from a family of "new Bentley every year" and "oh I just bought the cutest convertible one in pink" kind of family... and they had a cheapo photographer shooting in smallest size in JPEG , no album, no print. I talked to the photographer and he was actually not even a photographer... loved shooting sport stuff but never done any real photographer work. They probably paid and arm and a leg for this guy and I would not hired him to shoot my dog on her walk!
I saw some of the pictures he took and they were quite awful... (no composition, all pictures with his flash on top of his camera, etc.,) I think a 10-year old child with 1st day camera experience would have been able to shoot like that--or better.
So while I completely agree with you on picture life, the local market is such that even the rich and famous don't care about the quality. I am sure there are exceptions, but I have not yet found them. 99% of the people here do not put their wedding pictures on the wall and if they do get an album, it goes on the shelf for the next 20 years without looking at it. There is a different mentality here.
So what we do is charge heavy on the DVD side and rather then fuss with the print and album, do more weddings instead. I have a studio so I do more fun stuff--like pets, kids, glamour, family, etc., where there is more money with less work than in weddings and still everything goes on DVD that way too... but we are used to that.
Many wedding photographers here now do "documentary" style shooting, which doesn't even include the classical sessions of family posing with new couple.
A large percent of "new" photographers come into the market without knowing anything about lighting or Photoshop and do not offer any corrections. Many of these guys shoot weddings (and I am not kidding) for $500 all inclusive with DVD, no prints or album.
Granted, the people I know would (hopefully) not go for a photographer like that but I am sure many do for it... these guys are making a living! So yes, we have a tough market here but it is not impossible to make good money if one is able to distinguish him/herself in some way--and that distinguishing factor is not going to come from the print quality... :)
I agree with Matt - on multiple points. Mediocre works brings down the viewers opinion of all your work. An important point to remember is that we are always judged on our weakest image. I clicked on "executive" first - just one shot? That screams "little experience" - better to not have anything and wait until you have a good size portfolio of that genre, then create that link. Unless you think you can get a client to send you overseas to shoot lifestyle travel photos, don't include your vacation shots on your business website. I also agree that just one website is the better way to go - less work and you can put all your effort in to making that site superb.
Your work is very nice - just edit a bit and you will be on your way.
Thank you Jim for your comment too! Please read the one I wrote for Matt above, since the same applies to your observation as well.
Thanks,
Angela
Just one specific comment to add.
Two web sites effectively make it twice as difficult to get your work to a good place in search rankings (unless you are going to be paying for a lot of content and work on the 2 sites)
I have a site that is primarily to promote our commercial photography work. It also contains all the articles and reviews I write. From a business point of view the two are quite separate activities, however the site design integrates both. So what you might say? The articles are what get large visitor numbers and associated search engine interest. This has resulted in the photography part of the site doing very well - such that (here in the UK) a Google search for 'commercial photographer' will get a listing towards the top page one. That's never having paid a penny for advertising/promotion.
Looking at your sites from a search optimisation (SEO) point of view, there is a lot you could do to increase the chances of being found - lots of this is attention to small things. It's not difficult to find guides to SEO on the web - just be careful not to pay for services that you could easily do yourself. Just remember to work out what the site is really intended to do when planning additions.
BTW the weddings site seems to be flash based, and essentially invisible to search engines.
I know web stuff like this seems boring and dull to many, but if you want your web site to genuinely work for your business then it's well worth considering.
One other thing to consider - many photographers are pretty useless when it comes to using their web site as a promotional tool! If you pay some attention to it, you instantly steal a march on many of your potential competitors :-)
Wow, I did not know that flash-based websites are invisible to search engines! I am glad you told me that since that is the website that is listed in the google ad! Thanks also Keith for your suggesting SEO. I will certainly check that out.
So this makes me wonder if the flash-based site is really good for anything at all... Thanks for the info!
Angela
If you are adding new content to your site, just remember that a smaller bit of new stuff added once per week, will be much more useful than everything added in one clump every few months.
My wife creates bespoke bridal jewellery and maintains her own site, adding new items every week or so. Not long after I first met her, I pointed her to a free SEO course run by the local business advice service, where they covered all the basics of optimising a site. She's not into web development, but by following a few basic principles, she gets considerable new business through the site.
Hope your new business goes well - just remember to treat it like a proper business - all too many new photographers never quite appreciate this ;-)
I took this free online seo/marketing course ... it's excellent ... very interactive ... and it works ... I'll be using the concepts again when I get to the point of creating my photography website/s!
http://www.gnc-web-creations.com/web-training.htm
I have no personal affiliation to, or benefit gained from, this program.
Hi Angela,
You already have lots of good feedback - some additional thoughts:
- Decide on your primary 'brand name' - all secondary sites should link back to the 'brand site'
- In general, Photographers 'design' for photographers (while input about imagery is nice/helpful/good what you really need is input about how to get site visitors to contact you...) A site design with magazine photo editors as a target may not be the best design for family portrait clients.
- more specifically, design for the clients that you want
- you should design your sites for 'customer action' (help them fill out the contact form, send the email, pick up the phone...)
- if using multiple web sites you should design each site for your 'target market'
- the 'brand name' site (which is really a a generic site if you don't include any keywords that limit it) can contain any relevant content (some_name.whatever, with descriptions and links to all of your sites and/or pages covering your services/products.)
- the primary content for a keyword rich, specific, non-generic domain/site (i.e. yada-yada-wedding-yadada.whatever) should ONLY be about the keywords... i.e. your 'show' site did not send a message to my brain that said 'awesome wedding photographer that I should hire' :) - related photos should provide context if they are not directly discernible as a topical/related image.)
- If you use Flash you can improve results by manually editing the HTML meta-tags (title, keywords, description, etc) as well as including an HTML footer that adequately describes the Flash gallery. With Flash sites you generall 'miss' is search-drill-down-to-specific-images.
Shortly after starting this response my phone rang; it was a potential client who only glanced at my web site and called because my phone number is located in a web page 'hot spot'... (design/placement choice making it easy for the client.)
At this time, Geo-location (knowing where you are located) is 'hot'; while I believe that quality content will over-shadow anything else, having secondary, Geo-location sensitive domains as well as keyword-rich secondary domains (for very specific purposes) can also be helpful.
:)
Dale
While perhaps marketing-speak-heavy this video may be of interest (also, very recent...)
http://videos.webpronews.com/2011/01/27/what-not-to-do-with-landing-pages/
BTW - A 'landing page' is any page that is 'found' via an external 'link' or any 'home page'...
:)
Dale
Thanks Dale for the extremely useful comments and the link in particular! didn't quite know what a "landing page" really meant until this short video. Appreciate all your pointers and will get to working on my website a.s.a.p. Unfortunately the flash website that I keep for "show" is a template-based flash because I know nothing about flash itself... I will convert that too into a landing site.
Thank you so much! Extremely helpful stuff!
Angela,
I'm in the process of putting together my first professional site so I understand what you are going through, it's a lot of work. My thoughts as I reviewed your sites were as follows--
- Personally I don't see that you are getting any value out of having two sites, most of the photographs are on both sites, so other than layout differences they seemed similar to me. As others have stated from an SEO standpoint diluting your brand presence and using flash for your site means that your efforts are less likely to deliver the returns you want. I chose to utilize photoshelter for my site and have been very happy so far. Even if you don't use their services I highly recommend you check out their blog and their vimeo video stream, they have a ton of information on SEO, analytics, and business practices which are useful for new and experienced photographers.
-On your "real" site you have clear methods to contact you, the other site only has the option of sending an email form, which is going to turn some customers away.
-It may be a personal taste thing but I would lose the "sampler" part of your gallery names, it doesn't seem to add anything and just strikes me as off, though admittedly that could just be me.
Best of luck with your new business, I have only shot a few weddings in the NYC area but based on what you are saying I'm glad I'm not planning on making a living doing weddings in LA. If you haven't already looked at her stuff Jasmine Star is in Orange county and has been doing very well shooting weddings, her workshop at www.creativelive.com is probably worth watching as well as her blog.
Take care and good luck.
Todd
Hi Todd,
Thanks for your visit and comment. I visited Jasmin's website and was surprised to see the similarity of flash options to the hosting company I use (WIX) for my flash website! I think she is on that flash website, only has chosen a different template....
I also have visited Photoshelter and looked at their plans (have not yet checked their blog and video stream yet but I will).. I think you should check out Zenfolio which is what my regular website is hosted on... much cheaper and you get at least the same (if not better) options and service.
How is the wedding photographer market in New York?
I have changed the ads I have on google and facebook and the two websites are no longer interconnected in any way on my end. I will keep the flash for exclusively wedding and the main site as the one where clients log in (they are already doing that).
It's interesting that you commented on disliking the contact form on the back. It seems that is what everyone is using. You did not give a link to your website; I would like to take a look if you'd include it in a reply.
Best of luck with your new business too! I am completely buried and overwhelmed by google adwords, analytics... and alike... =)
Hi Everyone,
I am starting my business now "officially" (meaning license and all). I have created a website specifically for a "show"--I don't use this website for orders, only to ketch attention. I also have another website where I do take orders--this is my main website.
May I ask you to check the look and feel of my two websites and tell me, based on your expertise, if you think they are good?
The "show" website: http://www.stantonweddings.com and the "real" website where I take orders is http://www.stantonphotostudios.com .
Is it a good idea to have a website just for show?
Thanks for your helping comments!
Angela